Curse

Zexion · Dec 02, 2006, 04:50 AM // 04:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

Tactics, which is used in Urgoz's Warren and The Deep and required the funky builds, doesn't apply here. This is simply Party vs. Party. And that's impossible.

Indeed. Anet should have made DoA an elite mission where not excactly what gimmick build you are using.
The enemies should beat you by brains, not 100% brawns.
It should be beatable using any WELL BUILT balanced build (yes, even with place for 1 or 2 P or D.)
What should be the deciding factor between Victory or Death should be how good you are at playing the character. Not wether or not you bring Winter+Greater Conflag and Mantra of Frost, or any other gimmick.
You should stick to what you did in GWF. Make the challange in the mission in form of odd environmental effects and other gameplay gimmicks. The monsters should still be hard, but not like THIS! Here, the way you create challenge is by overwhelming by numbers.

The GWF team might have been bad at making locales and story.
But the GWN team seems to be bad at balancing PvE challenges to be challenging and yet FUN.

I now get what "Luck of the Draw" is an easter egg of...

_Zexion

MelechRic · Dec 02, 2006, 05:00 AM // 05:00

The jury is still out for me... I've been trying with the same group for over an hour. We've successfully killed two mobs of margonites, but we are being raped by the other demons. It may well be that you have to have very high Lightbringer ranks to do any of these missions.

If that's true then it's a bit sad, because I don't feel like grinding those ranks out. However, I can see why ANet would make it like this... so you have to PvE a lot.

Kais Unduli · Dec 02, 2006, 05:12 AM // 05:12

Lightbringer elitism = holding a town in my eyes. Sure, everyone who beats the game can access the new area, but not everyone will be able to enjoy it. Why can't we get an elite mission that doesn't have any requirements other than being there to get in?

Yes, before you guys point out the obvious, I understand it's an elite mission, but there should be a higher level area besides FoW/UW where we can simply show up and form a group.

Corran Horn · Dec 02, 2006, 05:28 AM // 05:28

How smart are the monsters in UW? DoA isn't just hard because the monsters do alot of damage. If there was a group of 50 Aatxes it would take 5 seconds to figure out how to kill them.

Pwny Ride · Dec 02, 2006, 05:51 AM // 05:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zexion

Indeed. Anet should have made DoA an elite mission where not excactly what gimmick build you are using.
The enemies should beat you by brains, not 100% brawns.
It should be beatable using any WELL BUILT balanced build (yes, even with place for 1 or 2 P or D.)
What should be the deciding factor between Victory or Death should be how good you are at playing the character. Not wether or not you bring Winter+Greater Conflag and Mantra of Frost, or any other gimmick.
You should stick to what you did in GWF. Make the challange in the mission in form of odd environmental effects and other gameplay gimmicks. The monsters should still be hard, but not like THIS! Here, the way you create challenge is by overwhelming by numbers.

The GWF team might have been bad at making locales and story.
But the GWN team seems to be bad at balancing PvE challenges to be challenging and yet FUN.

I now get what "Luck of the Draw" is an easter egg of...

_Zexion

The image says it all

brokenmonkey · Dec 02, 2006, 06:24 AM // 06:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by lightblade

Play Smart
4. Learn to take advantage of Environmental Effects in Realm of Torment

Care to elaborate

Hell Marauder · Dec 02, 2006, 06:39 AM // 06:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zexion

Indeed. Anet should have made DoA an elite mission where not excactly what gimmick build you are using.
The enemies should beat you by brains, not 100% brawns.
It should be beatable using any WELL BUILT balanced build (yes, even with place for 1 or 2 P or D.)
What should be the deciding factor between Victory or Death should be how good you are at playing the character. Not wether or not you bring Winter+Greater Conflag and Mantra of Frost, or any other gimmick.
You should stick to what you did in GWF. Make the challange in the mission in form of odd environmental effects and other gameplay gimmicks. The monsters should still be hard, but not like THIS! Here, the way you create challenge is by overwhelming by numbers.
_Zexion

I can never understand why people get upset by these.....ALL pve rpg games increase challenges by one or more of three ways, and I mean ALL!!!
1) Increase number of monsters
2) Increase the boss' hp and damages
3) Give monsters something players don't have, such as skills, effects etc

If you want smart opponents with intelligence, try HA or GVG. No digital monster is ever gonna be smart enough to provide longlasting challenges, period.

Pwny Ride · Dec 02, 2006, 07:16 AM // 07:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Marauder

I can never understand why people get upset by these.....ALL pve rpg games increase challenges by one or more of three ways, and I mean ALL!!!
1) Increase number of monsters
2) Increase the boss' hp and damages
3) Give monsters something players don't have, such as skills, effects etc

If you want smart opponents with intelligence, try HA or GVG. No digital monster is ever gonna be smart enough to provide longlasting challenges, period.

We should'nt have to go to RA, HA or any of the PvP based areas in order
to have a fun challenge, its why theres a PvE aspect in GuildWars, hence
it being an MMORPG, but theres a challenge, and then theres
unfair odds, as represented in the Domain of Anguish.

HA and RA for example is about balance, so comparing those areas to
the Domain of Anguish is unfair. Where teamwork was once required, it now no longer helps in a way that was accesible by everyone (who has beaten the game), and is instead countered moreso by POWER than strategy.

This is feel is where the Domain of Anguish went wrong, but thats jusy my oppinion

XvArchonvX · Dec 02, 2006, 07:31 AM // 07:31

yea...it's just a matter of time until someone finds some gimmick build that makes Domain of Anguish a cake walk...

Pwny Ride · Dec 02, 2006, 08:06 AM // 08:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

yea...it's just a matter of time until someone finds some gimmick build that makes Domain of Anguish a cake walk...

You shouldnt need gimmicks to have fun though, thats the main problem

Vahn Roi · Dec 02, 2006, 08:30 AM // 08:30

I've yet to clear more than three groups.

...I love it.

Horseman Of War · Dec 02, 2006, 08:52 AM // 08:52

well the wiki still says "presumed" for the location of Mallyx - So, uh- anyone get farther than a few groups?

I am definately a person who hates having to run 'special elite-mission only builds' and anything of that nature. Its the same thing that makes me rather saw off my toes in alphabetical order than play HoH (and I play a lot of pvp)

Once people figure out which skills which creatures have in regards to which map and effect you have, then yes- the gimmicks will arise.

What makes it really interesting, is that I have seen everything there tonight- people looking for everything - because nobody knows what to run. I dont have enough characters to the end of the game yet, aside from my Nightfall Characters- and honestly, they are doing the worst id say.

I played for a few hours for absolutely no gain in the grand scope of things and decided to wait until there is more information available on the effects and skill patterns of each new area.

Although - Im sure the AFK LB Farmers are having a much easier time... which is really really lame.

My rit is the next in line to make torment, so I might just put off the mission until then (but then I miss out on my gems etc with others)

Very frustrating- I applaud you and hate you at the same time anet.

Caspar · Dec 02, 2006, 09:12 AM // 09:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by lightblade

Play Smart is not just about good build, it's about many things:

1. Learn to avoid combat
2. Learn to avoid the take hit and heal up; and learn to prevent damage.
3. Learn to make enemy kill themselves.
4. Learn to take advantage of Environmental Effects in Realm of Torment

I like the new difficulty. I can't even remember when's the last time that it take me this much time to figure out strategy for the quests. I like to see henchmen in Gate of Anguish.

1. The maps always start on a dead end and there's always at least 1 mob blocking the path... there's no way to run...
2. Spike DMG FTW here, I am sure people can heal massive DPS in 1-2 secs
3. I am sure this can be done pretty quickly with level 28 mobs...
4. I wonder how I can take advantage of 10 DMG for every second you are moving... I guess I can run myself to death in case they don't mob me to death...

Please allow me to remind you that:
1. The monsters are still the same
2. The AI is still the same

What's different? Hmmm... bigger mobs and level 28 mobs with new names instead of level 20. How original...

Will we beat it? Yes... in time... but is there a point? Yeah... me 1 | anet 0 How boring.

prism2525 · Dec 02, 2006, 09:13 AM // 09:13

When I arrived 1st to the RoT I just couldn't go out of the 1st outpost (raping monsters). Then I just came to me... I was trying to overwhelm them damage-wise which, since I'm lvl 20 and they are lvl 28 is impossible. However then I found a fairly easy way to trash every group I encounter and all I had to change was one build... mine. from 3 SH eles I left the heroes carry on with SH and I switched to water with maelstorm and voila! Monsters dying left right and center.

Sure these mobs will have higher attributes and all that, but if I managed to kick RoT with just Heroes + henchies, how can it be that 8 humans can't kick a rather similar area? A guild team with Teamspeak should trash this fairly easily imo. Also, if you guys are worrying about the margonites, well... maybe you want to re-examine how keyboard commands work for they are far easier than the torment creatures (they don't split).

Earth · Dec 02, 2006, 09:37 AM // 09:37

Gaile was in Kamadan last night and she said that the people who tested it beated it in a completily (spl?) legal way. So yes, it is possible, and no, you don't have to whine because you can't beat it.

necronut · Dec 02, 2006, 09:43 AM // 09:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris616263

All this game has is "big bad" monsters. What you're asking is........well I have no idea. What the hell do you want, fire traps? All this game has is monsters; and the "newness" has been pushed to it's limits.

I suppose they could always incorporate complex math puzzles that can only be solved by 12 NASA scientists; but then that would make people hate Anet and force them to prank call pizza delivery guys to their office out of spite.

You Know it's thanks to people like YOU that I will never voice my opinions on these forums.

btw

Nice post Lord Beramus and maybe you can help fiqure it out for some of us

Omega X · Dec 02, 2006, 09:43 AM // 09:43

Advertisement:

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

The only way you will receive a real difficult, changing, interesting challenge is to fight PEOPLE, not the computer's NPCs.

PVE will never ever ever ever ever get a challenge like that.

The most PVE will get is stronger monsters, more and more mobs, more overpowered monster skills and ridiculous fighting instances.

And guess what, soon enough it will be too easy.

This Advertisement brought to you by the Guild Wars League of PvP. Because PvE is never supposed to have a real challenge.

/sarcasm

Seriously, if they can't make a PvE game more challenging without throwing a group of 24 monsters per square inch at you with a level that you will never reach, then I think its time to throw in the towel at making PvE games altogether. Just make it purely PvP and allow the bulk of the userbase to move on to other games that deserve it.

EPO Bot · Dec 02, 2006, 09:59 AM // 09:59

Bunch of spoiled brats! Get out of my favorite game if you have nothing better to do then dissing the stuff too hard for you to handle.

Get those lightbringer ranks up, then try again.

Personally, i won't get close to the new area before i'm at least vanquishing, and i dont get into parties with at least the same rank acrcoss the board. That's what elite missions are about: It will take "grinding" aka. playing the game for a time to be able to stand a chanse. It's like every professional sporter would complain they aren't champion of the world.

Frickin wimps... If it's not easy, they decide that it sucks.

And before anyone calls me elitist: I never even completed an elite mission in Factions; but i won't complain about it because they are supposed to be nearly impossible.

Manic Smile · Dec 02, 2006, 10:36 AM // 10:36

Let me tell you having high LB rank does next to nothing. Hammer Margos do 300+ damage on a normal hit. Ele spikes are just stupid, and the mesmers are worse. Winter + Greater Conflag. kinda works. All in all it's just another lame..."lets see how many overpowered monsters we can fit in a 4x4 room" mission.

Lord Beramus · Dec 02, 2006, 10:41 AM // 10:41

Maybe I have once more to clear my point in this issue. I am not judging the high difficulty of this elite area, I don't care if I can't finish it because I can't figure out a certain build or a Team-Build. What conserns me is the quality of that difficulty.
If you want to do something difficult and challenging fitting a great game like GW you can't just throw many big monsters in a new map. You should think ways that make the player having a hard time without being frustrated, that make him take a step further every time he tries again to beat the challenge, make him elaborate his last failure to find the solution.
This kind of creation demands time and a lot of work from the developers and designers part, and believe me I woudn't be so demanding if I didn't think that the guys in anet are the best in the game industry with enormous experience in their backs.
I don't doubt Miss Gray when says that this area can be beaten, but the fact remains that it will beaten by a few elite players (propably game testers), that later on they will pubblish the build or the team build and the rest will be able to finish it out. This way is not fitting to what you were offering to us until now..High quality!
I even doubt that is playtested as it should have, what I mean is that playtesters tend to be experienced players that cooperate very well with each other for the purpose to solve the challenge, but then you have to adjust your results with the majority of the community level that is surely lower. Something that is not the case here.
I can't stop seeing a time pressing issue in the creation of this particular update, something that you wanted to get over with, to move on for your deadlines.
Think about Tombs, Canthan Elites, Sorrow furnace, FoW and UW and if you can't figure something new, stick in the old good recipies. Even the best can't always offer an innovation but they can always offer something good.
I repeat myseld saying that I woudn't bother to post here if I didn't think that you can do a lot better and I am writing this posts out for respect for your creation and your abilities to gives us a challenge that will serve the purpose of a game...fun (not frustration)